Comments for East West Wisdoms http://eastwestwisdoms.com Interweaving Spirituality and Therapeutic Healing Tue, 24 Aug 2010 07:35:36 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 Comment on It’s all about perception! by Jacqui http://eastwestwisdoms.com/?p=860&cpage=1#comment-780 Jacqui Tue, 24 Aug 2010 07:35:36 +0000 http://eastwestwisdoms.com/?p=860#comment-780 Hi Nyima, Sorry for the delay in responding to your earlier comment and thank you for adding some subsequent thoughts. Your warning about how little we know about what other species feel, think, etc is certainly apt. I remember, for example, hearing a scientific discussion on the radio a few years ago about the high levels of intelligence observed in certain birds. Many of us will have heard references to high levels of intelligence, communication, emotion, etc attributed to dolphins and whales. I really have no specialist knowledge in this area and am open to all possibilities. My main point in writing about the unique qualities of every perception of every being was not to suggest a hierarchy of conceptual ability but rather to share my experience of realising, at a depth level, my habitual tendency to place myself (and my current perception of 'other') centre stage and that this is a false and misleading view. In imagining the completely different view that the bird would have if it were to even notice me, I felt the insubstantiality (emptiness) of all perception, thought and form. This is an experience that still slides in and out of focus for me, as I cling to or let go of a separate identity. Warm wishes, Jacqui Hi Nyima,
Sorry for the delay in responding to your earlier comment and thank you for adding some subsequent thoughts.
Your warning about how little we know about what other species feel, think, etc is certainly apt. I remember, for example, hearing a scientific discussion on the radio a few years ago about the high levels of intelligence observed in certain birds. Many of us will have heard references to high levels of intelligence, communication, emotion, etc attributed to dolphins and whales. I really have no specialist knowledge in this area and am open to all possibilities.
My main point in writing about the unique qualities of every perception of every being was not to suggest a hierarchy of conceptual ability but rather to share my experience of realising, at a depth level, my habitual tendency to place myself (and my current perception of ‘other’) centre stage and that this is a false and misleading view. In imagining the completely different view that the bird would have if it were to even notice me, I felt the insubstantiality (emptiness) of all perception, thought and form. This is an experience that still slides in and out of focus for me, as I cling to or let go of a separate identity.
Warm wishes,
Jacqui

]]> Comment on It’s all about perception! by Nyima http://eastwestwisdoms.com/?p=860&cpage=1#comment-777 Nyima Mon, 23 Aug 2010 17:16:38 +0000 http://eastwestwisdoms.com/?p=860#comment-777 Hi Jacqui and William, Please accept my apology. I was not trying to detract from your realisations or reflections which are indeed beautiful and profound, and certainly I did not wish to engage in polemics. However as a Buddhist of the Karma Kagyu, Sakya and Nyingma traditions and a student of cognitive studies, I felt it incumbent on me to draw attention to the love of the 16th Karmapa for his huge aviary of birds and his stating that after all they too posess the Buddha nature. Even our own little parrot displays quite a lot of intelligence not to mention emotions such as love, shame, jelousy, pride, arrogance and stuborness. She also readily displays affection and despite the language problems inherant in the situation, we manage to communicate well enough for all to be happy. Her curiosity, is like that of a toddler and to me this is a vital sign of intelligence - no matter how basic it may be. It is worth commenting on the observation that her prime emotional need is to be loved and to feel as a full fledged part of the family which has replaced her instinctive "flock". Anyway, you have a wonderful website so best regards to all. Hi Jacqui and William,

Please accept my apology. I was not trying to detract from your realisations or reflections which are indeed beautiful and profound, and certainly I did not wish to engage in polemics.

However as a Buddhist of the Karma Kagyu, Sakya and Nyingma traditions and a student of cognitive studies, I felt it incumbent on me to draw attention to the love of the 16th Karmapa for his huge aviary of birds and his stating that after all they too posess the Buddha nature.
Even our own little parrot displays quite a lot of intelligence not to mention emotions such as love, shame, jelousy, pride, arrogance and stuborness. She also readily displays affection and despite the language problems inherant in the situation, we manage to communicate well enough for all to be happy. Her curiosity, is like that of a toddler and to me this is a vital sign of intelligence – no matter how basic it may be. It is worth commenting on the observation that her prime emotional need is to be loved and to feel as a full fledged part of the family which has replaced her instinctive “flock”.

Anyway, you have a wonderful website so best regards to all.

]]> Comment on It’s all about perception! by Nyima http://eastwestwisdoms.com/?p=860&cpage=1#comment-761 Nyima Fri, 20 Aug 2010 14:35:11 +0000 http://eastwestwisdoms.com/?p=860#comment-761 For me, I have had similar experiences to Dawa. However, please consider the possibility that a lot of what we think/take for granted about the perceptions of birds, animals etc is assumption filtered thru our own prejudices, most of which are coloured by religious beliefs in a Judeo Christian society. We are so convinced of our superiority that we create a blindness to what is going on with other species. For example we assume that the most intelligent animals are primates first and then others. This, for example, could be perceived as a form of arrogance. It is possibly true that birds do not contemplate existentialism or quantum mechanics but - How do we KNOW??? May I sugtgest before thinking, saying or assuming too much more, that we give some consideration to the work of Dr. Irene Pepperberg and her dear friend and collaborator Alex, who unfortunately passed away recently. http://www.alexfoundation.org/ The website is well worth a visit before we assume any further and my point isn't to convince anyone of a new view but to caution that considering how little we know, we are in danger of falling into old traps. Surely people who have had close relationships with pets such as birds mostly will agree that they do feel the same range of emotions as humans including self awareness and even have theory of mind. Maybe we should seek what is common before seeking the differences. All life on this planet appears to be based on the same DNA, so Ockham's razor would suggest more incommon than different even though there is a question of degree and specialization. Please remember that it was not long ago that white people had black people as slaves and were convinced that they were savage automatons who do not "feel" and more importantly do not have a "soul" - so there is historic precedence to be cautious about further assumption regarding cognition and those who are "different". Love to all For me, I have had similar experiences to Dawa.
However, please consider the possibility that a lot of what we think/take for granted about the perceptions of birds, animals etc is assumption filtered thru our own prejudices, most of which are coloured by religious beliefs in a Judeo Christian society.
We are so convinced of our superiority that we create a blindness to what is going on with other species. For example we assume that the most intelligent animals are primates first and then others. This, for example, could be perceived as a form of arrogance.
It is possibly true that birds do not contemplate existentialism or quantum mechanics but – How do we KNOW???
May I sugtgest before thinking, saying or assuming too much more, that we give some consideration to the work of Dr. Irene Pepperberg and her dear friend and collaborator Alex, who unfortunately passed away recently.
http://www.alexfoundation.org/
The website is well worth a visit before we assume any further and my point isn’t to convince anyone of a new view but to caution that considering how little we know, we are in danger of falling into old traps. Surely people who have had close relationships with pets such as birds mostly will agree that they do feel the same range of emotions as humans including self awareness and even have theory of mind. Maybe we should seek what is common before seeking the differences. All life on this planet appears to be based on the same DNA, so Ockham’s razor would suggest more incommon than different even though there is a question of degree and specialization. Please remember that it was not long ago that white people had black people as slaves and were convinced that they were savage automatons who do not “feel” and more importantly do not have a “soul” – so there is historic precedence to be cautious about further assumption regarding cognition and those who are “different”.
Love to all

]]> Comment on It’s all about perception! by Jacqui http://eastwestwisdoms.com/?p=860&cpage=1#comment-740 Jacqui Fri, 13 Aug 2010 01:48:20 +0000 http://eastwestwisdoms.com/?p=860#comment-740 Thanks, Bill, for your comment. I take your point about animals, birds, etc being limited to seeing only in terms of 'good and bad. My understanding is that this is because their consciousness is limited to the instinctive (i.e. danger, food, mating, etc) and does not have the human consciousness capacity for self awareness, reflection/contemplation of abstract (versus concrete) phenomena - ie conceptual thinking. Curiously, it appears that conceptual thinking is a two-edged sword. It gives us the ability to think beyond our own self interest, to see a wider picture, but it also distances us from direct sense perception and therefore leads to confusion (ie many interpretations/concepts around the phenomena being perceived, thus triggering aversive, desiring and ignoring reactions). Chogyam Trungpa describes the animal realm as a dull, ignoring state of mind that fails to question and take a range of perspectives. We all tend to manifest this quality from time to time and blindly lurch from desire to dislike to 'don't care' but it is only when this mode characterises our behaviour and mindstate that there is rebirth in the animal realm. The ignorance we are referring to in relation to the animal realm is a bit different to the common Buddhist interpretation of ignorance as the lack of understanding the true, empty, unborn, nature of reality. At least that's my present understanding of the teaching on the six realms. Warm wishes, Jacqui Thanks, Bill, for your comment. I take your point about animals, birds, etc being limited to seeing only in terms of ‘good and bad.
My understanding is that this is because their consciousness is limited to the instinctive (i.e. danger, food, mating, etc) and does not have the human consciousness capacity for self awareness, reflection/contemplation of abstract (versus concrete) phenomena – ie conceptual thinking.
Curiously, it appears that conceptual thinking is a two-edged sword. It gives us the ability to think beyond our own self interest, to see a wider picture, but it also distances us from direct sense perception and therefore leads to confusion (ie many interpretations/concepts around the phenomena being perceived, thus triggering aversive, desiring and ignoring reactions). Chogyam Trungpa describes the animal realm as a dull, ignoring state of mind that fails to question and take a range of perspectives. We all tend to manifest this quality from time to time and blindly lurch from desire to dislike to ‘don’t care’ but it is only when this mode characterises our behaviour and mindstate that there is rebirth in the animal realm. The ignorance we are referring to in relation to the animal realm is a bit different to the common Buddhist interpretation of ignorance as the lack of understanding the true, empty, unborn, nature of reality. At least that’s my present understanding of the teaching on the six realms.
Warm wishes,
Jacqui

]]> Comment on It’s all about perception! by William McILwain http://eastwestwisdoms.com/?p=860&cpage=1#comment-739 William McILwain Thu, 12 Aug 2010 06:14:36 +0000 http://eastwestwisdoms.com/?p=860#comment-739 Hi Jacqui, love your discussions may I share my theory about perceptions with you? I feel that animals percieve things as safe or dangerous and act accordingly for instance the parrots felt safe as long as you behaved as you were but if you made a sudden movement then they would have acted accordingly as would the Kangaroo so I believe that animals see things as good/bad, safe/unsafe where as humans see thewhole picture, or the grey areas so to speak which gives us a more rounded perception of things. On the surface it may seem that animals have it over us in respects of an uncluttered mind but when you see the whole picture things that may seem bad can actually be beneficial, but an animal only sees the good or bad that is why I believe that ignorance leads to rebirth in the animal realm. I would appreciate your thoughts on this observation, and thanks once again for your web site Bill Hi Jacqui, love your discussions may I share my theory about perceptions with you? I feel that animals percieve things as safe or dangerous and act accordingly for instance the parrots felt safe as long as you behaved as you were but if you made a sudden movement then they would have acted accordingly as would the Kangaroo so I believe that animals see things as good/bad, safe/unsafe where as humans see thewhole picture, or the grey areas so to speak which gives us a more rounded perception of things. On the surface it may seem that animals have it over us in respects of an uncluttered mind but when you see the whole picture things that may seem bad can actually be beneficial, but an animal only sees the good or bad that is why I believe that ignorance leads to rebirth in the animal realm. I would appreciate your thoughts on this observation, and thanks once again for your web site Bill

]]> Comment on It’s all about perception! by Jacqui http://eastwestwisdoms.com/?p=860&cpage=1#comment-734 Jacqui Wed, 11 Aug 2010 07:09:41 +0000 http://eastwestwisdoms.com/?p=860#comment-734 Many thanks Dawa for sharing your experience of a sudden visceral change of view. Your experience sounds remarkably like my experience shared in this post. I find it very interesting how one 'knows' when a change of view is really significant and results in "never being the same again". I really appreciate your little story, particularly as it shows that you have heard and relate to what I was saying in my story. Warm wishes, Jacqui Many thanks Dawa for sharing your experience of a sudden visceral change of view. Your experience sounds remarkably like my experience shared in this post. I find it very interesting how one ‘knows’ when a change of view is really significant and results in “never being the same again”. I really appreciate your little story, particularly as it shows that you have heard and relate to what I was saying in my story.
Warm wishes,
Jacqui

]]> Comment on It’s all about perception! by Dawa http://eastwestwisdoms.com/?p=860&cpage=1#comment-719 Dawa Tue, 10 Aug 2010 07:00:41 +0000 http://eastwestwisdoms.com/?p=860#comment-719 HI Jacqui. I haven't responded to your postings before, but always enjoy them. When I was in my twenties I was on a long bus trip once. I love travelling and was fully enjoying the journey. The bus passed an isolated old house set near the road in the middle of nowhere. A young man was lolling in an armchair on the front porch with his feet up on the rail and it as the bus flashed past I realised that even though I am the centre of my own life - filled with its worries, joys and sorrows - I didn't exist for him as anything more than the side of a bus speeding past his house - one he possibly didn't even notice if his mind was on something else. It was a visceral understanding of how we are all the centre of our own universe but peripheral to everyone else's. The whole experience happened in less than a second and in many ways I've never been the same again. Something loosened up. without having the words for it I realised my sense of self was only a point of view. Well - now I've commented and that's all. Be Well, Dawa HI Jacqui.
I haven’t responded to your postings before, but always enjoy them.

When I was in my twenties I was on a long bus trip once. I love travelling and was fully enjoying the journey. The bus passed an isolated old house set near the road in the middle of nowhere. A young man was lolling in an armchair on the front porch with his feet up on the rail and it as the bus flashed past I realised that even though I am the centre of my own life – filled with its worries, joys and sorrows – I didn’t exist for him as anything more than the side of a bus speeding past his house – one he possibly didn’t even notice if his mind was on something else.

It was a visceral understanding of how we are all the centre of our own universe but peripheral to everyone else’s. The whole experience happened in less than a second and in many ways I’ve never been the same again. Something loosened up. without having the words for it I realised my sense of self was only a point of view.

Well – now I’ve commented and that’s all.
Be Well,
Dawa

]]> Comment on The power of belief by Jacqui http://eastwestwisdoms.com/?p=814&cpage=1#comment-652 Jacqui Tue, 27 Jul 2010 07:36:29 +0000 http://eastwestwisdoms.com/?p=814#comment-652 Thanks, Chloe for your comment - and sorry for delay in seeing it and replying! My concern when I wrote was primarily with the cloaking of self interest under the guise of God and 'being good'. I agree with your point that the concept of the interconnectedness of all beings, as perceived in the Buddhist philosophy, is at odds with actions and beliefs guided by self-interest. Warm wishes, Jacqui Thanks, Chloe for your comment – and sorry for delay in seeing it and replying! My concern when I wrote was primarily with the cloaking of self interest under the guise of God and ‘being good’. I agree with your point that the concept of the interconnectedness of all beings, as perceived in the Buddhist philosophy, is at odds with actions and beliefs guided by self-interest.
Warm wishes,
Jacqui

]]> Comment on Interviews by Jacqui http://eastwestwisdoms.com/?page_id=24&cpage=1#comment-619 Jacqui Sun, 18 Jul 2010 03:39:39 +0000 http://eastwestwisdoms.com/?page_id=24#comment-619 Dear Raili, So happy you enjoyed listening to Tarchin. His readings from "timeless living" can be found, read and downloaded from the writings/practices section of his website: http://www.greendharmatreasury.org/writings/practices/. I think you will find many wondrous teachings and practices to explore in Green Dharma Treasury. His great generosity in freely offering and sharing his wisdom is a great boon to us all. Warm wishes, Jacqui Dear Raili,
So happy you enjoyed listening to Tarchin. His readings from “timeless living” can be found, read and downloaded from the writings/practices section of his website: http://www.greendharmatreasury.org/writings/practices/. I think you will find many wondrous teachings and practices to explore in Green Dharma Treasury. His great generosity in freely offering and sharing his wisdom is a great boon to us all.
Warm wishes,
Jacqui

]]> Comment on Interviews by Raili Zielinski http://eastwestwisdoms.com/?page_id=24&cpage=1#comment-617 Raili Zielinski Sat, 17 Jul 2010 11:34:10 +0000 http://eastwestwisdoms.com/?page_id=24#comment-617 Dear Jacqui, Tonight i listened to the conversation shared between you & Tarchin Hearn. He is beautiful to listen to & i was very touched by his description of "timeless living", which he read from his written book at the interview's end. I don't remember if you mentioned his book earlier in the conversation & was wondering if you could email me the title of that particular book. I would love to read it. Thankyou very much, Raili Dear Jacqui,

Tonight i listened to the conversation shared between you & Tarchin Hearn. He is beautiful to listen to & i was very touched by his description of “timeless living”, which he read from his written book at the interview’s end. I don’t remember if you mentioned his book earlier in the conversation & was wondering if you could email me the title of that particular book. I would love to read it.

Thankyou very much,
Raili

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